Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:26:15 -0600 From: ckobar@dttus.com To: mage-l@wizards.com Subject: Aurelius' Crossover Rules, Part I Message-ID: *********** AURELIUS' CROSSOVER RULES *********** In the past, many World of Darkness chronicles were focused solely upon one of the various White Wolf games, and as such, found no real need for crossover rules. If a group played Vampire: the Masquerade, for example, the inclusion of a lupine in a story would be handled by the rules as given, with stats and abilities of the lupine given in terms of V:tM. This worked, in general, especially if the lupine, mage, or whatever was not to be a very important part of the ongoing chronicle. This method allowed these "other" beings to remain quite a mystery to the players (and the ST!), to some degree enhancing them by ensuring that the vampires "saw" them in terms of themselves, not being able to understand the truly fundamental differences between them. From a Storyteller's view, this is both good and bad. As more information about the other games became available, however, it was no longer possible to simply overlook these fundamental distinctions, at least if one wished to truly incorporate them into a meaningful and serious chronicle. The time came to grab the bull by the horns. Most ST's now own at least a couple different WW games (or at least the initial rulebooks). This has resulted in the ST's having a much better understanding of the differences between the denizens of darkness and has given us a wealth of new ideas and story concepts to play around with. It has allowed a much more fascinating and vibrant chronicle overall, one in which a lupine is no longer simply a big furry fighting machine, but a spiritually focused champion of Mother Earth. Mages are no longer just "very dangerous and mysterious wizards", but rather very unique and embattled reality benders fighting their own fight for enlightenment of the masses. This is good and should be done. By using the Mage rules for mages and the Vampire rules for vampires, these beings special traits and abilities can be best explored. For how can the true power of the understanding of the Sphere of Entropy be rightfully understood from a vampire's or Garou's point of view. It cannot be justly explained in terms of a Discipline or Gift, and to do so would be to deny the mage that which is so basic to them that without it they are nothing. For the most part, it should be the case that a cohesive and balanced World of Darkness chronicle, incorporating many different kinds of supernatural beings, can be run without having to resort to too many crossover rules. When a mage works magick, it is no problem to use those rules which deal with such. When a vampire is faced with fire, refer to the section on the Roetschreck. If a wraith attempts to "skinride", use those rules specifically dealing with the appropriate Arcanos. Most of a story need not refer to any crossover rules, as it is only on infrequent occasion that the different supernaturals should have much contact anyway. The times will eventually come, however, when a few vampire characters encounter a Hermetic mage out for a midnight stroll in order to clear his head and try once again to figure out how the fifth root removed of the Tree of Ashes would allow primal transference to occur between the signs of Gelph and Fulstayr, since no direct correspondence exists between the abstract ephemera. Or it will finally come to pass that the curious Nosferatu neonate can no longer resist the temptation to reopen the plugged up tunnel deep within the warren, only to discover in the steaming green, slime covered caverns beyond a band of gibbering and insanely gyrating half-dog, half-mutated human creatures, moving in dizzying spirals about a bubbling pit of phosphorescent black sludge. Yes, it is at times like these when crossover rules are called for. To accomodate the yammering and whining WoD enthusiasts that we are, the powers that be released the "official crossover rules" in the appendix of Chaos Factor. Bravo, I say. Though there may be some confusion and difficulty and even imbalances that must be addressed, what was handed down to us from Stone Mountain was at least a firm beginning that began to finally bring some consistency (at least in a mechanical sense) to the various WW games. The Problems Yes, there are the problems. But instead of screaming "White Wolf hates mages!" or something similar, it is far more constructive, both for you as a consumer and a player or ST, to instead find out just what can be done to work out the kinks and end up with a very workable and enjoyable system. Here are the problems which exist with the "official crossover rules" and/or exist aside from the rules as regards crossovers: 1. According to the table of comparative Ranks, a mage can never be ranked higher than 5, while vampires can (and it is likely possible that wraiths and perphaps even Garou can too). This means that a good deal of the time, a mage will easily lose in a direct conflict of powers with another supernatural. 2. The very idea that by simply "outranking" another's powers one can completely overcome another is ludicrous. Sure, it makes the mechanics simple, but sometimes speed of play is not a worthwhile achievement when so much fairness and balance is lost. 3. In reference to what it takes (in the way of Spheres) for a mage to "affect" vampires and wraiths, not only is the word "affect" misleading and vague, but the very explanation itself only serves to confuse and frustrate mage players. 4. Magick in iteself appears to have been "de-powered" to the point where it becomes nearly impossible to do anything to a foe who can simply "resist" with his Willpower, easily obtaining enough successes to cancel out most effects right off the bat. 5. References made concerning Coincidental magickal attacks and how they may be "dodged" appears to further impinge upon supposedly "powerful mages". 6. Mage players at times try to circumvent their characters' limitations by having coincidences actually be more beneficial than the effect the character is capable of actually producing, therby making obsolete the very Spheres themselves. I'd like to state for the record that as ST, I have been perceived by my mage player as being very biased AGAINST mages, so what I have stated above does not stem from a sympathy for mages over the other WoD creatures, but simply from my own experiences running a number of different encounters with all the assorted beings and trying out many different systems for creating some kind of balance. Solutions What follows are my solutions to the problems outlined above. They are intended to rectify those problems and allow a smooth and atmospherically-appropriate game to be run in which any of the various supernatural beings can interact and retain the "official" relationships as stated in the basic rulebooks for the various games. In other words, mages would be very dangerous in the eyes of the vampires, as would be the lupines. Vampires would still be dangerous to mages, but their sheer numbers relative to the mages would be counterbalanced by the fact that in the end, a vampire plays real-world games, while a mage plays games with the real world! When to use Crossover Rules In most instances, no special rules are needed to resolve a situation. Simply use whatever rules were written for that specific being/situation. The only times that crossover rules are needed is when there is some "supernatural" conflict between two or more different beings that normally fall under their own separate rules systems. This should be obvious. Conflicts usually arise because one supernatural is trying to use a special power against another supernatural. A Garou calls upon the spirits to Jam Technology so as to screw up the laptop that the Virtual Adept is attempting to use. A Verbena performs a powerful ritual intended to blind a vampire across town. A Ventrue elder tries to Command the Wearied Mind of the slavering man-wolf that has just entered his antique haven. These are perfect examples of direct conflicts calling for crossover rules. Other conflicts are not so direct or obvious. A Toreador poseur is humiliated at a public art exhibit when his anonymous works are ridiculed by the critics and attempts to draw a Cloak of Shadows about himself so as to fade into the background and leave the place, while a lone mage at the back of the hall watches the gathering in the reflection of a large mirror, his magicks allowing him to see the True Nature of those in the hall so that he can locate a vile fomor that he has been seeking in order to learn the location of a Nephandus. Does the vampire's Obfuscation hide him from the magickal scrying of the mage? Ranking Supernatural Powers In any instance of such conflict, whether direct or indirect, the first thing to do is to rank the respective powers involved. This Rank is based on the overall ability of the supernatural to command and understand what he or she (or it) is actually doing. The following should be used: Vampires: Use the highest level achieved in the Discipline being employed, regardless of the actual level of the Discipline. If a vampire possesses Dominate 4, but was only employing Command the Wearied Mind, then the Rank would be 4, not one. Garou: Use the actual societal rank of the Garou. This is done because the Garou themselves do not actually perform the Gifts, but simply call upon the spirits to do so for them. Their societal rank, however, approximates not only their social standing, but their understanding of the spirit world and the Gifts of Gaia. Mage: Use the mage's Arete rating. This is a departure from the "official" ruling, but is a much more balanced method of determining Rank. While the mage's specific understanding of the Sphere being employed is important, it is the mage's overall understanding of the universe itself that allows him or her to truly grasp the relationship between perception and reality. It also allows mages to rise above a limitation of Rank 5, giving them a realistic standing relative to other beings. Wraith: As vampires, though using the highest level of the Arcanos employed instead of Discipline. Now, what to do with Rank? I have replaced the simple "automatic defeat" method published with the following, much more fair, procedure: 1. Compare the Ranks of the two powers in conflict. The difference is the Rank Differential. 2. This Rank Differential is applied as a difficulty modifier to the appropriate rolls of BOTH characters, where the higher ranked power would result in a decreased difficulty for that character and the lower ranked would, of course, find the difficulty increased by the same Rank Differential. 3. Both characters/players make their normal rolls for their respective powers. 4. Successes achieved are used to cancel each other out. Should one party still have at least one success, then that party "wins" the contest. This "win" may, of course, not mean complete success, that determination left up to the normal ruling for the power in question and the ST. 5. A Botch by either party should INCREASE the successes of the other contestant by ONE. If both botch, there is a draw. Special mention must be made in regards to the above. When a conflict occurs, as in the obfuscated vampire scenario above, where a power should still have some effect on others beside the other supernatural (the mundane folks gathered in the art gallery), the result of the roll PRIOR TO CANCELLING OUT SUCCESSES DUE TO THE CONFLICTING POWER should apply to those not in conflict. In the above situation, the vampire might have been dicovered by the mage while still remaining obfuscated to the perceptions of the ordinary observers present. One last note: Use the above rules for contests ONLY IF NO OTHER RULE IS ALREADY GIVEN. The Wraith Screen, for example, gives a number of rules for conflicting powers. Use these before resorting to the above, as they are more specific and take into account much more. "Resisting" Supernatural Powers Countermagick and Defensive Magick: these concepts become very confusing and are often the source of most conflicts between players and Storytellers, especially when mages are involved. Countermagick refers to any use of a supernatural ability that is capable of nullifying or reducing the effectiveness of another's supernatural power. The means by which mages counter each others' effects by either "undoing" their opponent's effect or by completely disrupting it with Quintessence is unique to them. Most other supernaturals don't have that kind of overall understanding of reality to be able to purposely interfere so directly. The obfuscated vampire scenario is a perfect example of Countermagick. Aside from that though, most any direct conflict between supernaturals would fall under this heading. Countermagick is resolved as a normal conflict, unless both powers are of the same kind (Arcanos versus Arcanos) and there is already a pre-existing rule that would apply. Defensive Magick is simply a flashy term for any attempt to defend one's self from an effect or the realization of an effect. Sounding an airhorn while a mage is concentrating on producing an effect is a perfect example. Just as useful is the use of other magick or supernatural abilities to somehow defend against the actual effect. The example used above with the obfuscated vampire and the scrying mage fits under this heading, as do most direct conflicts between supernaturals. Not all Defensive Magick must be in the form of an actual conflict, though. A mage might "summon" a speeding car in order to slam into a vampire, hopefully smashing it to death. Because the damage to be done DOES come from a car, the vampire may very simply try to avoid the vehicle by dodging it or something similar. This may not seem like defensive "magick", but it essentially is, especially when one considers that in the broadest sense, EVERYTHING is magick. Of importance to remember is the fact that in order to resist any kind of supernatural power one must first have the means to do it. It is not the case, however, that the one resisting be aware of his resistance, a point which the scenario above well illustrates. More about these two points will be addressed below. Awareness and Ability As already mentioned, one need not be aware that their own supernatural power is in conflict with that of another being. This usually occurs, as above, when one individual is attempting to perceive something and has a chance to "accidently" detect another supernatural, but this is not always the case. What is important though, is that mutual awareness not be a prerequisite in every case, although a special exception is made with Mental Powers as will be discussed below. One must possess the ability to use Countermagick or Defensive Magick, of course, to do so. It does a mage no good trying to find an obfuscated vampire if he only possesses knowledge of Entropy and Time. Exactly what Disciplines, Spheres, Arcanos and Gifts would coincide is up to the Storyteller, but a consistent framework must be adhered to. Without such, the game devolves into arguments over fairness and bias. The booklet included with the Wraith Screen gives some excellent guidelines for how all these things would compare and I recommend it as a starting point at the very least. Another strong recommendation I make is to decide exactly what magickal Spheres a particular thing would fall under. This area is a source of great debate and has caused far too much needless bickering. I have settled upon the following guidelines that follow. Turning Vampires into Lawnchairs (Or, what Spheres do I need to hurt someone?) Alright. To settle this once and for all requires certain decisions to be made that will not change as the game goes on. By adopting the following, it is very simple to determine what "affects" who and eliminates any further problems that might arise concerning this issue: 1. The Spheres of magick are NOT subjective FROM A STORYTELLER'S VIEWPOINT. This is the most crucial thing to understand. Let the players and their characters perceive the Spheres to be any damned thing they want, especially if it improves the story atmosphere. Who cares if the Celestial Choruser believes there is only one Sphere? From a story perspective, that works just fine, actually. BUT, for a Storyteller to try and allow Spheres to actually be capable of completely different things in a game mechanics sense is plain stupid. Not only does it require continual judgement calls every time a certain effect is desired, but it will necessarily result in the final determination of what can and cannot be done becoming a matter of consensus between players and the ST, drastically slowing down the game and frequently disrupting an otherwise interesting story. By having the ST determine an absolute limit for each Sphere, the ST need only glance down at the player's sheet to figure out whether or not a certain effect can be done. The player can go on thinking that his character summoned the spirit of a demon to sever the chandelier chain, while the ST actually refers to the character's level in Matter or Entropy. The demon spirit is for the character and the story. The Spheres on paper are for the ST and the mechanical rules. 2. Determine EXACTLY what the essential makeup of mortals, wraiths, Garou and yes, vampires is. Then, DO NOT DEVIATE. I, believe it or not, use the rules as printed in the Wraith Screen, with only minor clarifications. They are: Normal human: Everything is considered LIFE, except perhaps hair and nails (MATTER) Mage: Normal human, folks. Garou: Normal human (or wolf, or whatever). Vampire: Composed entirely of MATTER, BUT infused with and given undead status by their accursed vitae (LIFE). Wraith: When materialized, they are as normal humans. When in the Shadowlands, they are composed of corpus, which is PRIME infused with ENTROPY. SPECIAL: Every being is also possessed (not composed) of a SPIRIT and a MIND. See below, however for how to treat these things. Now, what does this all mean? It means that a mage may do whatever he or she is damned well capable of doing, so long as they possess the requisite knowledge of the Sphere necessary to manipulate ("affect") a particular being or a certain part of that being. For example: If a mage wishes to fuse a vampires arms and legs together so that he is more of an eel than a four-limbed creature, such magicks would NOT require any knowledge of LIFE. The only knowledge necessary would be MATTER, since NOTHING WAS DONE TO THAT PART OF THE VAMPIRE COMPRISED OF LIFE. Get it? Now, while the above effect might surely hinder the undead fiend, it would no way directly result in injury to the vampire. Sure, he may not be able to move around much, but since his vitae -- that stuff that ensures that he is a vampire and not a rotting corpse -- is considered LIFE (it has Quintessence flowing through it), it is not affected in any way by the MATTER effect. The vampire is no closer to Final Death simply due to the effect, although the repercussions of being so physically altered may indeed eventually result in such an outcome. On the other hand, if the mage used LIFE magicks instead, and say, began to cause the vitae to spontaneously mutate, it might very well harm the vampire horribly, perhaps even destroying him. This would require no understanding of MATTER, though it would probably necessitate that the mage be aware of his target (the vitae itself) in some manner. (More crafty, the mage could "poison" the blood of a vampire's intended feeding victim!!!) If a mage wishes to trip, bind, confuse, or burn a vampire, the knowledge of the appropriate Spheres would have to be utilized. ENTROPY, for example, is capable of destroying both Matter and Life at diffent levels and would be a very effective weapon against nearly anthing. A wraith in the Underworld possesses a corporeal body (Corpus) that is composed of patterned Quintessence and infused (corrupted by?) a high degree of entropic forces. One could apply knowledge of either PRIME or ENTROPY to do harm to such a being, although a wraith can easily regain Corpus, while entropic damage would be far more severe... Two Special Cases: Spirit and Mind Every being in the World of Darkness is considered to be possessed of both a Spirit and a Mind, however one conceives of them. Many claim it is the Mind which allows the Spirit to manipulate things on earth. Whatever the case may be, both are highly important and can be the target of a mage's own manipulations. SPIRIT Addressing the first (and some say more important) aspect of the Self, Spirits do not exist in the physical world, for to speak of Spirit one speaks of "actualization", or the state just this side of physical existence. The Metaphysics of Magick in the Mage rulebook discusses this to some extent, and should be the guideline here. This would imply that if something is already in existence in the physical world, it is no longer simply actualized, but truly exists and therefore is no longer a thing of Spirit, but of some physical pattern. A Nexus Crawler, for instance, is a Spirit and to affect via magick would require the use of SPIRIT. Should that Crawler materialize, however, it is no longer simply an actualized thing, but has now crossed over into real physical existence. At this point, one could harm it magickally by using LIFE and/or MATTER, as well as perhaps ENTROPY and FORCES and PRIME. The Sphere of SPIRIT though, would no longer have any use in regards to the foul monster, at least not until it dematerialized and once again became only a spiritual entity versus a physical one. Should a mage wish to truly destroy a Nexus Crawler forever, he or she would have to not only destroy it physically, but more importantly would have to de-actualize it entirely by attacking it in a spiritual sense. It may seem contradictory when one considers that a Garou, when "stepping sideways" literally leaves this world and enters the Umbra. This is just another way of saying de-materialize and re-materialize. In the Umbra, the werewolf is not physical (for nothing there CAN be), but is Spirit. And what about when a werewolf "sees" a mage or other Awakened being in the Penumbra, even though that being is physically on earth at the time? It seems that here the Garou might really be seeing nothing more than the powerful aura that surrounds all Awakened beings. This aura is not a Spirit and therfore CANNOT be harmed or in any way directly manipulated, but is rather a reflection of "what" a being truly is, noticeable due to the strength of Avatar(?) of all Awakened beings. Even mundane mortals possess such auras, but he relative weakness of theirs causes them to literally disappear into the background of the Umbra. In effect, if a being (or object) has a real, physical manifestation, then that being does not simultaneously exist as a Spirit. Even in the case of a Fetish, this holds true. If a Garou has a spear as a Fetish, then that spear does not exist in the Spirit world, but the Spirit that is bound into the spear does. This is an important distinction. The primary use of the SPIRIT Sphere, however, is not to damage, but to simply perceive and communicate with those beings that exist only as actualizations, not yet physical bodies. Such perception and communication allows other magicks (ENTROPY, PRIME, TIME, MIND) to be used on Spirits. MIND Perhaps the most troublesome of all Spheres, considering that nearly all supernatural beings possess some mental abilities and everyone, including mundane humans, should seem to have some kind of defense against such direct (though perhaps imperceptable) use of magickal powers. The following should provide a consistent and fair system that truly supports the assumptions of the World of Darkness: 1. If a mental power is being used against an Awakened being without an appropriate power of its own that ought to provide some special defense (nearly all vampires), then the defender may make a Willpower roll to resist the power SO LONG AS THE VICTIM IS AWARE OF THE POWER'S USE. The number of success scored by the victim of the power are used to cancel out the number of successes achieved by the attacker. The difficulty for the Willpower roll is equal to the Rank of the power plus five (Diff = Rank + 5). Note: This is not a typical "contest" as outlined above where respective Ranks are compared to determine an applicable differential for difficulties as Willpower is NOT considered to be a supernatural power and therefore has no Rank. Some Merits or Flaws might play a role here if the ST deems it justifiable. 2. If a mental power is being used against an ordinary, non-awakened mortal, the same rules apply, BUT the target must spend a point of Willpower in order to be allowed to make the resistance roll. Some Merits (Iron Will, for example) might allow the mortal to be treated as an Awakened being for purposes of such resistance. 3. If a mental power is used against a being, Awakened or otherwise, that possesses an innate ability of their own that would allow some better defense against such attacks, then that other ability should be used instead. This is a classic "contest" between two supernatural powers and should be treated as outlined above using respective Ranks of the powers being employed by each contestant. For example, the player of a certain mage (Mind 2, Arete 4, Willpower 6) would have two choices if his mage wished to defend himself against the domineering commands of the Ventrue ancilla (Domination 4). The vampire wishes to command the mage to "grovel", something that this mage is not about to stand for. If the mage wished, he could simply make a Willpower roll with a difficulty of 9, giving him a pool of six dice. The odds are that he will get only one success. At the same time, the vampire would have a difficulty of 6 with an unknown pool size. The mage could instead resist magickally by quickly "super- rationalizing" the command of the vampire. This would create a Rank Differential of (Arete v. Domination) zero. The mage would have a difficulty of 5 (coincidental, Fast Cast) and a pool of three dice, while the vampire's difficulty would not change. The odds would again be that the mage gets two successes, though in this case his potential to get more is reduced due to the decreased dice pool. The above case is based on a relatively weak mage and a relatively powerful vampire. If the mage's Arete were any higher, or his Willpower any lower, then it would be increasingly beneficial to rely upon his magickal arts to defend himself instead of his human Willpower. In nearly all cases, the target of a mental attack or probe must be aware of such in order to defend themself. A mage possessing MIND magicks is automatically aware of any such intrusions, but for most others, it is often difficult to recognize such mental manipulation unless it is overly blatant (Command the Wearied Mind, for examle). Subliminal commands, telepathic reading and similar invasions are very hard to detect and therefore defend against. A Perception and Intuition roll could be justified, but most of the time the attack would simply slip by the guard of the target. Damage: Normal versus Aggravated Not to rehash what has already been printed in each rulebook in addition to published crossover rules, but a few final words must be said about damage. First of all, use the general guidelines in each rulebook for what is and is not aggravated damage. Not only are these guidelines "official", but they are sufficient. Secondly, use good judgement. If a mage uses MATTER and LIFE to sever a vampire's head (both required due to the complete disruption of the flow of Quintessence through the vampire's patterns), that is aggravated damage. In fact, a good rule of thumb is that ANY severing or removal of a body part results in aggravated damage, as would any injury that was of similarly extreme severity. One should be cautioned, however, not to simply make the damage aggravated because one imagines how a particular cause of injury might hurt a normal person. Remember, vampires and such are not normal, and a tractor trailor running one over might do little more than slow him down for a few moments. Keep these kinds of distinctions in mind. Even when a player specifically states that his mage intends to cut the vampire in half with magick, this should only actually occur if the damage as figured on the normal chart would result in the destruction of the target. If this is not hte case, then the actual result would fall short of complete severing of the vampire. Perhaps his spinal cord and some muscles are still intact, allowing the bloodsucker to live, although he will need some SERIOUS recovery time! In general, magickal damage is not aggravated unless the effect is conjunctional and the mage possesses knowledge of ALL Spheres necessary to "affect" the target's ENTIRE constitution, OR if a mage expends some Quintessence into the effect to add some "punch", not to lower the difficulty. Coincidental "Cheating" This section does not technically fall under the "crossover" category, although it is a problem that, at times, can very easily enable a mage to unbalance the game by seeing just what he can slip past the Storyteller, exploiting the built-in flexibility of the Magick rules themselves. Sometimes (maybe much of the time), mage players try to "cheat" with coincidental magick. They do this by claiming to wish for a certain effect which they are sure they can create, and then they give a coincidental explanation that actually is far more beneficial to their character than the announced effect was to be. This is a tricky area, but it happens and is a troublesome thing. For example, if a player's character was stranded in the Texas desert and told the ST that he wanted to use MATTER and PRIME to create carbon monoxide, that player might try to explain it coincidentally by saying a car happened to come by. If this were the case, then the player might actually have slipped on past the ST, since the mage really wanted to have a car come by the whole time so he could hitch a ride. Here the player gave a coincidence (a car) that was actually the effect he wanted all along, but was unable to do because he did not have the appropriate Sphere. Now, some may counter this and say "But magick is flexible and not all Spheres will act the same way for each mage." Hogwash. Using the "flexible" argument is simply poor lawyering. In this game, as in any, there must be constants by which all things can be measured. The Spheres and their ranks are those constants, not whatever creative coincidence the player can think up. Yes, there should be flexibility, but it should be limited to appearances and creative application of a Sphere's given effects. Coincidence does not exist as a means of circumventing one's weaknesses, but simply as rational explanatory mechanisms to fend of Paradox Spirits. As a general rule, I have the player simply tell me the intended effect and then, if there is to be a coincidence, give me the general form of that coincidence (for example, "bullet"). Then, as ST, I describe the actual effect as perceived, basing the extremity of the effect upon the degree of success achieved. Using the "bullet" example, one success might mean a stray bullet from a drive- by shooting (in a city) or from a hunter (wilderness), while four successes might mean a number of police officers firing at the target. In other words, don't allow the player to detail the coincidence, but simply have him or her outline the basic form which it will take. The rest is up to you as final arbiter. This way, balance rests fully in the hands of the Storyteller. The way I see it anyway, mages are never quite sure exactly what they'll get when they take a few threads of the great Tapestry and reweave them a bit. All they know is that by tying to previously unrelated threads together in a certain way they will probably get a "bullet" or whatever. Whatever coincidental "baggage" comes along with that bullet is anybody's guess. Often, mages are just as surprised at the final outcome of their effect as are others, though they can't complain so long as the actual intended effect does take place. Conclusion I regret the length to which I went here to present my crossover rules, but unfortunately the tangle of misunderstandings and vaguaries that have already been floating about for some time now in regards to this issue have necessitated such a degree of depth. In the end, what I have espoused here is truly a very quick and simple system once all the discussion and examples are removed. It allows for a fair balance of power between the supernaturals and explains some of the trickier aspects that arise when they interact and come into conflict. In the end, the game should be fun. Unfortunately, when a troupe consists of characters of different types of beings, there will ultimately arise dissention over who is being favored and who is being screwed over, not by the ST, but by the very rules themselves. Fairness must therefore be maintained and I believe that what I have presented here makes an impressive step in that difficult direction. Aurelius, Dedicated Servant of Fairness and Fun